Ferrari Speaks!Ferrari has provided an explanation of his “all in” rule. It was a bit long for the comments section, and it warrants posting in its own right, so here it is. My response has been relegated to the comments of my own post.
Iggy, the ball is in your court.
(1) In every home poker game I have ever played in, including Coach’s, people have always been free to reach into their wallets in the middle of hands when they run out of chips. Until Ugarte did it (or tried to do it – I don’t remember the circumstances, but it involved Swish and either we didn’t let Ugarte do it or we did and Swish was pissed, can’t remember) a couple of months back, no one had ever tried to go all in before, except for in situations where they had no more money in their wallet or were done for the night if they lost the hand.
(2) Though I have only recently been forced to think about it, I don’t want to prevent people from being able to dip into their pockets during a hand for at least the following reasons (a) these are casual and fun games, I am not running a casino and I want a loose easy going environment, not a bunch of hard and fast rules that I have to impose; (b) considering the variety of games we play, including some where occasionally the pots get very expensive compared to most others (Anaconda when it is getting maxed each round, for example) it is relatively easy for someone to think they have plenty of money in front of them, but end up going through all their chips before the hand is completed; (c) I don’t want people to have to be worrying about whether they have enough money in front of them at all times in case a hand gets out of hand (see (a)); (d) in my experience, people do not like it when they have a monster hand, want to keep betting it and someone suggests that they were limited to what they had in front of them; (e) in my experience people with a monster hands don’t like it when they run into someone who runs out of chips and is able to stay in “for free” to draw their inside straight and/or doesn’t “pay them off” because the all in person don’t have to bet out; (f) I have often had new and/or inexperienced players at the game and, in my experience, most of these people, to the extent they have a thought on the subject, assume they can go into their wallet for more money; (g) I don’t want to try and explain table stakes ahead of time to new and inexperienced players; (h) most of the people who play in my games have played much more often in home games than casinos or online and are used to going into their wallets mid hand when they run out of chips; (i) the buy in is $100, to some that is low, to some that is high, for those for which it is high, I don’t want to force them, in a situation where they are down to $40, to have to start going into their wallet to be sure they can stake a monster hand when they may not be comfortable putting that money on the table unless they are in a big hand, or feel uncomfortable because they don’t want to tempt themselves by putting $40 in cash on the table; and (j) having lots of actual cash sitting under chips would probably raise the seriousness of the game (see (a)) or have people buying chips from people a lot more often whenever they get lowish, rather than waiting until they are out of chips, which is annoying and may also raise the seriousness of the game.
(3) Other than the one situation with Ugarte and Swish, this had never been a problem and the only time anyone else had tried to go all in was when they were out or were going to leave if they lost the hand. In the situation with Ugarte and Swish, I believe that Swish thought that Ugarte wanted to go all in because he was on a draw and Swish did not want him to get free cards. I don’t think this was the case, because I think Ugarte, not surprisingly, pummeled Swish’s not that strong after all hand, but the point is a valid one.
(4) Ugarte has reached into his pocket mid-hand before. He once described it as a monster tell. I was curious about that, until I figured out that he thought he had the option of going all in or going to his wallet. I cannot remember if, in a later discussion, I indicated to him I would probably have not let him go all in such a situation. I know I thought it, but not sure if we ever talked about it.
(5) In the game before last (no Ugarte) a new player, out of chips but in a big hand, asked what the rule was on going all-in. People had already dipped into wallets mid-hand earlier in the night. He did not say that he was out of money (though I suspected it) and I did not want to be rude and ask him whether he was out of money. I was not in the hand. On the spot, I said that I had never come up with a hard and fast rule, but that if I had thought about it my rule would probably be that you can only go all in if, if you did not win the hand you were going to call it a night. The reason for this rule was to prevent someone from playing the system; i.e., (1) you plan on playing more poker, win or lose the hand; (2) you’ll go into your wallet when you have a monster (or want to bluff a monster); (3) when on an unlikely draw, you’d love to get a free look at the next few cards so you just go all-in in that situation. I believe the above gives the advantage to the player who has run out of chips. I don’t think that is fair. I also know that we have some savvy players at my game who would, if that was the rule, take advantage of the rule (myself included). However, I am not going to force someone who is either (a) out of money; or (b) has lost all the money they are willing to lose to fold their hand. Hence, the rule. (kudos to Coach for pointing out that, within the spirit of the intended rule, if you are truly out of money and thus forced to go all in, you should be allowed to go to an ATM and then come back for more poker).
(6) This is up for discussion and I welcome the thoughts, comments and ideas of those who play in my game and the anyone else who reads Ugarte’s grovels. I will consider changing my rule based on feedback and advice. However, in no circumstances will the rule be that you have the option of going to your wallet or going all in (except for the exceptions set forth in the rule), that is not negotiable – at least not at my game.
